> Imagine getting on a high horse about exactly how people keep a bunch of non-native bugs. That's what this is a thread about!

We're all invasive. And we've brought a ton of non-native species to all parts of the world over the millennia we've been doing this. I'm not sure what you propose we do now about that. You can't unbreak that egg. I could stop beekeeping, and it wouldn't make a difference. We could stop all commercial beekeeping and that would likely be an agricultural disaster for many crops.

Given all of that, why should one not look into how best to "keep a bunch of non-native bugs"?

There is a balancing act here: while beekeeping does in many ways help support the population of non-native species, you are right in noting that a lot of eurasian plant species that we rely on need domestic bees – and honey bees, in particular – to produce our food. At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species – especially in the case of those eurasian plant species. It seems to me that honey bees must be kept in agricultural settings – and in that case, I hope that they are kept responsibly – but the urban beekeepers discussed upthread should, perhaps, put a larger part of their effort towards keeping native species.

> We're all invasive.

Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. We may have been when we first arrived – and many native species went extinct as a result – but humans have been a part of the local ecosystems for tens of thousands of years and – where I'm from in canada – have been here since the ice sheets receded and the local ecosystem began to evolve. We are far past the point of being an invasive species and have (had?) long been integrated into the ecosystems in question.

> At the same time, that modern monocrop agriculture is further exacerbating the problems faced with non-native species

For sure.

> but the urban beekeepers

Are they really a problem? How many hives are they keeping? I've no idea. I know it's hard to come up with numbers in that regard because most such hives are -presumably- completely not registered.

Urban and suburban beekeeping can only be considered a hobby. And a risky one at that. Bees don't like lawn mowers running near them, and neighbors don't like getting stung. I think urban beekeeping must be a non-problem.

> Humans are absolutely not an invasive species in the americas. [...]

Fair.

It's not really my point that beekeepers should feel bad about what they're doing, only that they should stop moralizing so much about it. Unless they're in the UK. I guess honey bees are allowed there.

I can get behind that. I don't like moralizing either.

There's still lots of practical reasons to want and recommend treatment-free beekeeping practices:

  - it's easier on the beekeeper
     - less labor
     - not working with dangerous chemicals
     - it's cheaper (no need to buy said
       dangerous chemicals)
     - less time doing things to the bees
       that the bees don't appreciate ==
       fewer stings
  - it's easier on the bees (no pesticides)
  - it breeds stronger bees and weaker mites

It might be easier on the environment too (not so strong mites might not affect native pollinators much), or maybe not (stronger honeybees might really out-compete native pollinators).

Plus if the loss rates w/ and w/o treatment are similar, why bother treating?

Similarly there are moral and practical reasons to switch from Langstroth to top-bar hives:

  - moral: kill fewer bees
  - practical: get stung less,
               no need for gloves
               nor full suits, only veils

If a beekeeper lacks empathy for the bees, they might still have empathy for themselves!

tptacek - normally I find your commentary insightful, but I'm a bit taken aback by your stance on bees, plus feel its a bit out of step with many beekeepers / researchers. There are commercial and research beekeepers who are also taking steps to protect native bees and pollinator habitats and spread awareness of the same. In my "backyard" there are at least three types of native bees in addition to my hives. Would be very interested to understand the root of your fervor against apis mellifera.

I don't really have a problem with backyard beekeepers; it's just in the US, they've become emblematic of a kind of evangelical and ill-informed faux-environmentalism and I'm fond of pointing out that, here at least, they're essentially the battery-farmed hogs of the insect world. Also I'm scared of them.

I like a mason bee. Docile and fuzzy, those guys.

I wish we were closer geographically - would love to invite you out to connect with our local beekeepers and share a frosty beverage as it sounds like it would be a positive exchange. I can't speak for those in urban areas - I can imagine the type you are describing though and I can see how that would be grating. Here in the middle of nowhere, I think many are aware that we are fundamentally keeping livestock that are not native to this continent. The commercial beekeepers in particular see no romance in what they do - it's about 18 wheelers of boxes headed to CA for almond pollination.

And commercial honey producers also see no romance in what they do.

We're switching to top-bar hives, and after that it will be comb honey only, because I don't want to bother extracting honey if it's not in Langstroth frames, and I don't want any more Langstroth. I'm thinking I'll still have some Langstroth supers because, well, I don't kill bees when inspecting supers or harvesting, it's when I get into the deeps that killing bees becomes almost impossible to avoid, and if that works out I think that will yield better-looking comb honey. I'm done with plastic foundation, too, and therefore also with centrifugal extractors.

That sounds fun! I'm only like 60% serious about my anti-bee-agenda, though. :)

You must be referring to the beekeeping hobby developing as a "zomg the honeybees are in trouble and we have to halp!". It's trueish that that happened, and that the colony collapse disorders didn't really warrant hobbyists jumping in.

On the other hand, I think that hobbyists are doing some of the driving towards better mite treatment practices. It's new eyes on the problem. It's also driven some investment in research. Texas A&M's honeybee (and other bee) research budgets have gone up in recent years, and I suspect part of that is that interest in beekeeping is way up, and part of that has to do with Texas allowing beekeeping as a type of ag activity that can earn one an ag exemption on property taxes but also with the rise of beekeeping as a hobby.

> I like a mason bee. Docile and fuzzy, those guys.

Even Apis mellifera is fairly docile if, you know, you don't kill any of them. The bees in my nucs never ever sting -- they don't have that much to protect, but also I never kill any at that stage when I inspect those. The real problem with beekeeping is the bleeping Langstroth hive -- it might as well have been designed to kill lots of bees. Even with lots of practice and patience, and having put a lot of effort into finding ways to avoid killing bees, I still manage to kill one or two when I get into a Langstroth hive -- it's infuriating, to me and my bees.