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Show HN: SVG Animation Software (expressive.app)
203 points by msarca 7 months ago | hide | past | favorite | 98 comments
Expressive Animator is an SVG vector animation software that helps users create and export animated icons, logos, and illustrations. Users can import SVG, PDF, Adobe Illustrator files, and Figma designs, and animate them using easing controls, motion paths, masking, and other techniques. Expressive Animator also allow users to export their animations in other formats as Lottie, GIF, PNG, and video.


I like the look of this product, and will definitely take it for a test drive next time I'm working on a website frontend. Nice work!

I think the pricing page is misleading, due to how prominent the "lifetime license" verbiage is, without also clarifying what the "lifetime" includes.

I know the terms of the license are clarified in the "Will I receive free updates" FAQ, but that text is hidden in a accordion, third item down, on the bottom half of the page. Whereas "lifetime license" is mentioned twice above the fold, and "pay once, use it forever" is the H1.

Not having a subscription is definitely a selling point. I bought the Affinity suite because of it. But IMHO "lifetime license" is not the way to communicate that.

In comparison check out the pricing page of Sublime Text, Ableton Live and Bitwig Studio. All of these apps have a similar pricing model. (one time payment with updates included for a period of time). https://www.bitwig.com/buy/ https://www.ableton.com/en/shop/ https://www.sublimehq.com/store/text

Sublime Text uses the words "once off purchase" and immediately clarifies "comes with 3 years of updates".

As a software buyer, the words "lifetime license" for anything non-trivial is actually a turn off. We all know software takes effort to maintain. I actually scrolled down to the FAQ to read the fineprint hoping to see Expressive wasn't a true "lifetime license" product because I think it increases the likely hood of software becoming unmaintained


Great, thanks for the feedback! We'll revise the wording if it generates so much confusion. Drop me a line at support@expressive.app after you try it and let me know how it went.


This looks like a great product filling a gap in the marketplace. You mention a Affinity a lot in these comments, but not in your marketing. If people who like the Affinity model is your target consumer, maybe you should mention compatibility on the site. Affinity also offers a free trial, and perhaps you should too since you don't have a reputation. This product is also about the same price as an Affinity product, which feels too expensive.


Thanks for your suggestion! We provide a free trial https://expressive.app/expressive-animator/download/


Missed the free trial. Definitely make it clear there is free trial on the pricing page.


Will do, thanks!


Expressive Animator gives you the right to use the current version of the software (v1) in perpetuity and entitles you to receive free updates until version 2 becomes available (no planned release date currently).

So... is it the real lifetime license? What about the next versions?


When version 2 is out, you will have the option to upgrade for a fee or to continue to use version 1 for free for as long as you like.


That's a fine business model (similar to Jetbrains) but your ad copy is a bit misleading:

From the pricing page:

"Enjoy the benefits of our lifetime license and get access to all features and upcoming updates with a one-off payment"


It's not misleading, it's simply not factually correct or their intention.


I think that this is a disingenuous use of the (legacy) term 'Lifetime license'. No-one who hasn't recently been screwed over by a software house like 4K Video Downloader [1] would think that 'lifetime' only covered the current lead version number.

A new term such as 'All version [n] updates included' (or something less clunky) needs to be found. At least one could Google it and understand the proposition, if its meaning was not clear - but 'lifetime license' is massively deceptive.

[1] https://reddit.com/r/4kdownloadapps/comments/1hbmdpn/really_...


The fact that every single person that brings this up is met with a form of "we don't see a problem, you're just reading it wrong" is a bad sign for the future of this project.


The product's value is not given by its pricing model, and the future is bright.


It is not, because you do get a lifetime license. Of course you don't get free "lifetime updates", but you can keep using the version you have paid for as long as you want.


So apparently it’s not your lifetime, it’s the lifetime of the software version. If you never upgrade then it could be your lifetime.


It's always the lifetime of the version or the lifetime of the software, never your lifetime.


By lifetime I mean you can use it as long as you like without having to pay again. So it depends on how you get the software, if it’s web based then yes there may be a lifetime of the software but if you install it on your machine then you will stop getting bug fixes or security updates at some point but software itself won’t stop working until your hardware dies.


Is this one of those lifetime purchases where I have to pay again in 5 years when the developers realise they regretted offering a lifetime licence?


Their faq states that the license is valid for the current version (v1) and not for any future versions. So all they have to do is increase the version number when money is tight.


wow, that's a lot of life for "lifetime" license right?


Meh, if they are following the affinity scheme, then a v2 would have a pretty good value add, and is worth it. I paid twice for affinity, and I’m still into the whole suite for less than a few months of creative cloud. Granted, this is one product, but I’d still much prefer a once off and upgrade fee vs a subscription.


I have no affiliation with this product or company. I'm curious about the options here from a business perspective.

A business has continual costs, which at the minimum may just be the ability to support a single developer's adult life. This app is selling itself once per major version, which judging by some comments here is somewhat unappealing. Many people are justifiably sick of subscription payments. I am also assuming many people would not appreciate e.g. an ad-supported version of something like this app.

So, what does that leave in terms of realistic business options? Are there any examples out there of a software business that succeeds in supporting its own development while helping its customers feel like they are getting their money's worth?


You have to charge for upgrades. It's not reasonable to pay once and expect lifetime updates. Subscriptions are annoying, but if you want ongoing support of course you have to pay.


It can work if the updates are significant enough to warrant a new version.


I think selling by version is arguably the most ethical way to do it, maybe with a SaaS license option. I think the main thing is just be honest that that is what you are doing.


I think JetBrains model is best with thier IDE. You purchase, and get one year of updates, if you don't renew you get a perpetual license at whatever update level your update license ended at, and you can restart at anytime.

This avoids games about what is or is not a "new version" or shipping minor updates as versions or any of that nonsense, it's just updates generally.


This isn't true for JetBrains any more, and hasn't been for ~10 years. They run on what is essentially a pure subscription now, with the caveat that if you stop paying, you can continue to use a version of the software. However, it's not the version you're using at the end of your subscription period, it's the version from 1 year prior to that. So if you stop paying, you will probably have to downgrade. See: https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What....


Probably. Isn't Expressive also the people that touted being Open Source til that didn't live up to their unrealistic expectations?


We have exactly the same business model as Affinity.


You might go and read the ad copy of Affinity (I own v2 of it).

  USD$164.99 One-off payment | excl. tax
  Get Version 2 of Affinity Designer, Affinity Photo and Affinity Publisher on 
  all operating systems, including iPad, for one low bundle price.
See how it explicitly calls out "Version 2"?

How about Cleanshot?

  $29 One-Time Payment
  One year of updates
See how it calls out "One Year of updates"?

Now let's look at Expressive:

  Enjoy the benefits of our lifetime license and get access to all features and 
  upcoming updates with a one-off payment.
Get access to all features AND UPCOMING UPDATES. Nobody is going to assume this is restricted to the current major version, and having this "gotcha" in the FAQ is going to come with some headache when customers discover "All upcoming updates" doesn't really mean what it says.


Well you didn't make that clear in your initial speel about getting all future upgrades. You tried to pull a fast one, it didn't work, and now you'll have to back-track and clarify.


Yeah, it's called "listening to feedback", so don't get into conspiracies with what I have tried :))


Haha. You knew what you were doing. You were trying to fish people in un an underhanded way by not making it clear that the one-time purchase isn't _actually_ a one-time life time purchase with all future updates for free. Take the L and move on.


You've read me like a book! When you grow up, you should become a detective. Or a business consultant, as you are equally good at figuring out why people buy stuff.


If Adobe buys them, then all bets are off.


So many comments in here interpreting “lifetime license” as “lifetime updates”. Ugh. As a person with a one-time purchase product I feel the pain of trying to succinctly explain the idea of “one time purchase, comes with updates for 1 year / 1 major version”.

msarca - it might be worth looking at the wording on CleanShot’s pricing page. I notice they avoid the word “lifetime” entirely. I wonder how much confusion they still get.


It's confusing because the pricing page literally states "Enjoy the benefits of our lifetime license and get access to all features and upcoming updates with a one-off payment."


What is confusing? Since the launch, we have released 10 updates, and we'll continue to release new updates until v1 reaches its EOL. Then, the updates will stop, but you will still be able to use the software. It seems pretty straightforward to me.


I sell software with a similar licence. I'd say that get access to all features and upcoming updates is incompatible with Then, the updates will stop. At a very minimum it's confusing, but it sounds fairly deceptive to me. I think being really clear about what users will receive is paramount, even if it ends up making the messaging confusing.


Thank you for sharing your opinion. The primary reason people buy Expressive Animator is its high quality. The perpetual license is just a bonus. It's sad to hear words like "deceptive" from a fellow entrepreneur, but don't worry, I've grown a thick skin over the last years.


> The primary reason people buy Expressive Animator is its high quality

You keep talking past people.

The feedback they're sharing is very simple. It's not super clear from your sales copy if my purchase gets me access to all updates forever, or if those are limited to the current major version. The way you're intending it to work is simple, yes, but your sales copy doesn't reflect that.

It seems like an easily solvable problem, tweak your sales copy to clarify, but instead you keep digging your heels. Fine, it's your company. I'm not a lawyer, but generally I'd be worried about making a bunch of sales if its not clear to my customers what exactly their buying. I don't get why you'd take such a chance when the fix is so simple, but again, it's your company.


I have no problem at all with your licensing model, I currently use the same one myself. I just think your messaging needs to be clear.


Keep it up maybe in a few more years you’ll be able to take feedback without getting defensive about it.


'Lifetime' not only has a Legacy meaning of 'updates forever', but is still used in a less disingenuous way by major products such as Plex [1]. The reactions you've got on this page are a clear indication to abandon the deceptive wording that you lead with (the truth being hidden in an accordian FAQ).

[1] https://www.plex.tv/en-ca/plans/


TBH, I'm a bit surprised by this interpretation, as we don't have this problem with customers. Maybe it's an HN thing. I think we were only asked once or twice about how updates work. I'll take a look at CleanShot though. Thanks!


Have you hit the point where they have to pay again, yet?

My product was originally offered as “one time purchase, one year of updates”, and the customer confusion/anger didn’t show up until I offered a discounted early renewal over Black Friday a few years back.


No, not yet, but I'm confident our customers will not be confused. We'll see.


There's a Github link but there are no repos. How do I package this for my favourite Linux distro?


You can't, we don't support Linux, but someone here suggested Synfig as an alternative.


Alternatively, you might want to give KDE's Glaxnimate a try: https://glaxnimate.org/


Looking awesome! If it's not a secret, what's the reason for going with 1-time payment, besides subscriptions?

Maybe it would also be cool to allow 1-time download (many times, people just need to animate 1 SVG, but they don't wanna pay for full software). So let's say $10 for 1 SVG would be a great deal


Thanks! It's not a secret: we believe this model offers more value to the customer and better fits our vision. We tried subscriptions and had moderate success, but we never felt we were connecting with our users. There is no reason for users to pay us $10, as we offer a 7-day free trial, which is more than enough to animate one SVG. Also, we reset the trial every time we introduce a more important new feature so people can try and assess the software again for free. In the last 3 months we had two trial resets.


Looks great! What would you say are the main differentiators compared to SVGator?


Thanks! Funny enough, I'm super-qualified to answer that since my partner and I made that software https://www.linkedin.com/posts/marius-sarca_coming-soon-the-...

Of course, in the meantime, they brought new features and regressions, but the core technology remained the same, so I have an excellent insight into that product. I would say that the main differentiator is the team behind the product. Ours is better, and your experience as a customer will also be better with us.


Is it a bit flash like in the sense, that I can script the whole thing easily?


Will give this a trial, but just wanted to ask: does the svg export use SMIL or javascript or css? (If SMIL major props, I’ve been looking for a gui SMIL editor forever…)


All three options -SMIL, CSS, JS- are available for SVG export.


Great work, but I have to ask. How is this different from Rive?


Thanks! We primarily focus on SVG animations, while Rive has its proprietary format and player. SVG animations run natively in the browser and don't require a player. By having their own format and player, they are not limited by standards and can, naturally, provide more features. Of course, this comes with disadvantages too, as users get vendor-locked. Also, they have a subscription-based model, while we offer perpetual licenses for a one-off payment.


Looks really cool. I appreciate all the videos on youtube too!


how does it compare to keyshape?

https://www.keyshapeapp.com/


Hey, didn't know where else to say this, but your logo breaks on dark mode. Pretty sick software!


Thanks for the heads up! I'll fix it


You'll also want to remove the GitHub link. It's been a long time since 2021.


Nope, I like that link!


I'd be interested to understand why. From my perspective, it'll only get peoples hopes up before letting them down, which does not associate good emotions with your product.


Cool! How does it differ from Animatron that had SVG animations for ~10 years already?


Does this support animating with line offset dashes?


Yes, it does


So awesomeeee I always wanted something like this


Thanks! I'm glad you like it


I like it! Will give this a try, any free trail?


Sure thing https://expressive.app/expressive-animator/download/


I like the look of that - and I really hope it STAYS as a lifetime license.


[flagged]


I was about to say. I'm just happy that I was able to start a trial without having to sign up for something. We are inundated with Adobe-style subscription nonsense in the modern day, and then when someone builds software and uses a classic trial/purchase model, we all start complaining about that too because we aren't entitled to an upgrade for when macOS 20 comes out 7 years from now.


[flagged]


Maybe that's why people don't bother targeting Linux. Look at your comment. Why are people so easily offended these days by things that are out here, doing no harm to anyone. Like, you could just hit the back button and go on with your day. Why do you need to be so offended? If this is the sort of stuff that triggers you I can't imagine how your day looks like.


[flagged]


Completely normal for Show HNs to be someone's attempt at making a business...


Damn. Didn't expect so much bitterness this morning. What a strange set of "demands" for a pretty decent piece of kit.


I find it interesting when folks criticize software for not being free / open source. There's nothing stopping you from creating the FOSS you are disappointed someone else didn't create - or from investing your own time into improving an existing project. I don't think we need to criticize someone else's choice to go a different path.


We don't _need_ to criticize it, but there's also nothing wrong with expressing the criticism. Maybe I would have found this useful and worth paying for, but I can't without having the source. It's a shame that the potential usefulness of this work is limited in a way that prevents people like me from supporting it.


The project was originally open source. Here's a fork of the original 2021 repo.

https://github.com/gqshell/ExpressiveAnimator


It’s a shame but you also have to be realistic. People have to make a living.


You know, a "made with" blender film just won an Oscar. I bet Blender devs also have to make a living and I doubt they work for free.


Blender is actually a business in spirit (even if not legally) and has very active and aggressive marketing. That is why they are dominating the OSS DCC tool space and get millions in corporate sponsorship.


> very active and aggressive marketing

Like where? The Blender Foundation doesn't do any aggressive marketing...


Blender is amazing and I love it. That doesn’t mean that replicating their success is an easy feat or for everyone.

If it was easy to get the required funding, wouldn’t Synfig be in a position to rake in funds and hire people to improve Synfig?


Got to be realistic. That was one piece of software and it took decades and a team and plenty of free labor to get to where it is. People have to eat daily.


FLOSS devs do eat daily. It's not developed by fasting people.


The vast majority of FLOSS projects are underfunded and we have far more cases of projects that had to shutdown because they lacked funding than projects that were successfully able to fund themselves.

Survivor bias backed examples are not a good argument.


There’s a lot of work behind Blender, and behind it having that infrastructure to pay some devs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History


You know, survival bias. For each floss project where its devs can make a decent living just working on that project, I can can name way more where they depend on the free labour/willing of their maintainers.


To be fair, Blender did not start as a FOSS but as a proprietary software.


Just to add a bit more context to this: Blender started as an "in-house" software (studio NeoGeo), written by Ton Roosendaal, in January 1994. In 1998, they founded a company (NaN) that would distribute Blender under a freemium pricing strategy (you would buy keys to unlock more features). But the base software could be downloaded for free. In 2002, that company went bankrupt. And with the help of 250,000 users, they raised enough money to buy back the rights owned by the investors to release Blender under an new licence: the GPL licence. In May of 2002, the Blender Foundation (non-profit) was created.


As opposed to this that seemingly started as foss and no longer is.


What are you talking about? Hundreds of Blender developers did and do work for free.

Just because a movie made with it did well, doesn't mean Blender devs get paid.


Blender dev here. A majority (like 2/3) of the development nowadays happens through the core development team: it's around 30-40 full-time/part-time paid developers. Most are located in the Netherlands. We make an average salary that's slightly higher than the average in that sector here in our country. All of the money comes exclusivly from the Dev Fund (fund.blender.org). It's all donations, no strings attached. We say "thank you" and (if they wish) put the logo on the website.


https://devtalk.blender.org/t/hiring-a-blender-dev/13151


You're not the market




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