Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line.
They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line.
That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. It has value as an easily repairable and customizable laptop. It has value in some esoteric use cases it can be customized into (e.g., 4xM.2 NVME slots).
Would love to see some reviews just get this out of the way up front and spend more words on the product itself.
Personally, I'm glad there's a company out there serving a market niche besides being the lowest cost, most value-engineered product. I don't mind paying a bit extra for that in exchange for the other value I get out of it.
(And all that said--at the high end specs their prices get a fair bit more competitive. The price to upgrade a laptop from 16GB -> 128GB on Dell's site is _more than an entire FW16 w/ Ryzen 9 + 96GB RAM_.)
There's a frustrating tendency for reviewers to miss, or just ignore, the point of a product in their review. I wish they'd give a rating based on how well it fits into its niche, not how well it fits the needs of the average reader.
As an example, I recently bought a car, and went with a small crossover SUV because I wanted something that could handle light off-road duties on the weekend. One of the reviews deducted points because the car's clearance was too high and it meant the car didn't hug the road. The clearance is the point of that car. The manufacturer literally took one of their other models, raised it an extra 9cm, and stuck some minor cosmetic bits on.
In the same way, nobody buys a Framework laptop because it's competitive on price. This review does acknowledge that, sort of, but I think it discounts that someone might not be able to afford a Laptop 13 but might still pay a small premium for a Laptop 12 because they like the ethos or they benefit from the customisable design.
Is that group a bit enough niche for profitability? I'm not sure, but I think the review should either directly ask that question or put it to the side.
I actually get a lot of value out of the repairability. It lets me buy a cheaper computer upfront without having to worry about whether i can upgrade later on.
How many times have I thought, maybe i should get 2tb just in case, and then end up using 500gb. With framework, I'll buy the 1TB and the cost to upgrade is very low if I ever need to.
Same thing with memory. Maybe i need 16, maybe 32, maybe 64. I tend to buy more than i need out of fear. I just don't have that fear with framework.
Oh, and don't even get me started with repairs. If my screen breaks, i know the time to fix is however long their shipping lead time is, since the repair itself will take me 15 minutes.
In general, i think that value depends on how you see a computer. $1000-2000 is a lot to spend on something you use for fun. It's really not much to spend on something you use every day for work. And it's even less if your company is paying.
The repair-ability has been a huge thing for me as a father of young kids. I've only had to do it once when a toddler jumped on the laptop screen, but it ended up being a fairly cheap repair instead of what had hitherto been a full laptop replacement.
I want a fully clear case, but apparently that's too brittle and isn't possible? This is what the Framework people say. They have keyboards like this, but won't make a full shell in this style.
I'd kill for a fully transparent phone or laptop shell.
I'd pay $1000 more for this aesthetic. Double if it's in the florescent neon colors of 90's /00's Nintendo / Apple designs.
I think the repairabilty makes it hard to even compare monetary value, since in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. Is it cheaper to buy two other laptops compared to one laptop + mainboard? That's what, a 3-5 year timeline? Who knows what prices/capabilities/etc will be like then.
>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard.
I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe that's just me though?
I bought the DIY FW13 a while back, and it took me 40 minutes from receiving the box to having it fully assembled, Fedora installed and a Youtube video playing. I bought the hi-res display a month or two ago, and the whole replacement took ~20 minutes. In between those two experiences, the whole upgradeability thing feels very very real for me. If anything, it's easier to work on than my desktop PC.
For the same money, one can also get a laptop that has a nice display right from day one. The FW12 looks interesting, but if I'm hoping to buy an upgraded screen down the road, and a better CPU, a backlit keyboard, a better camera, and maybe better speakers... then I am not taking advantage of upgradeability, I'm bending over backwards just to avoid buying a Lenovo Yoga or so.
If we’re talking Thinkpads, Framework has a better offering IMO, especially if you don’t get Lenovo edu prices. I think for a lot of IT departments the Frameworks are quite attractive, now. And that’s before they even really developed the business offering.
How’s Linux support on the cheap non-thinkpad Yoga? If it doesn’t boot, can you easily remove the SSD and protect your data before sending it in for a few weeks? Fixing a Framework yourself doesn’t void its warranty. In a deadline situation this can be quite existential.
You are seemingly also come from a place where the individual grand total is your measure, but if finances are limited, the progressive, as needed upgrade path may be more of a value in itself. Something something shoes.
I don’t think the "just buy a Mac" or the cheapest laptop possible crowds are the target audience. I can totally see something like the Framework 12 becoming the platform for eg. a school's FOSS based tech program with good maintenance scalability. Especially outside the US.
Don't get me wrong — the real draw is repairability, not upgradability. Upgrades are just a fringe benefit for a nerd who likes tinkering, and proof that the repairability is real.
I've kept the same PSU for two motherboards and the same chassis for four motherboards. I've kept my main monitor across two motherboards and my second monitor across three motherboards.
If you're a Framework customer it's not entirely unlikely you buy a case for your older mobo and now you have a power efficient home-server (or something) at your disposal.
It's definitely been different on desktop for me. My computer's been ship of thesiussed twice over, but even when I changed the case,PSU,MB,CPU,cooler that one time the GPU and storage stayed. I've changed CPU 4 times and GPU 5 times over the past >15 years.
Because the old machine is still useful intact. I don’t see a difference between laptop and desktop here. I agree I don’t see myself ever swapping in an upgraded motherboard.
I do wonder how many people repurpose old laptops when they get a new one. I have three old laptops, two of which I haven't turned on since I transferred my stuff to the next one. My partner uses the third one to game sometimes, but she's recently gotten a new laptop of her own (her old one is ancient), so I expect she'll stop using that one as well.
My current laptop is a Framework 13 (from 2022) that has already seen some upgrades and repairs that wouldn't be possible on any of my old laptops. I expect this chassis and SSD to last quite a long time, with periodic mainboard and RAM upgrades.
Maybe I’m reading into this too much, but just the fact you even had to make repairs (plural) in a 3 year old laptop doesn’t speak highly of Framework’s quality. I’d expect to make exactly zero repairs in 3 years of owning any decently built computer.
Perhaps they dropped their laptop from great height? Something would render a conventional MacBook a write off. You cannot know that led to the repairs. Only that they were successful.
I think there are some important differences. Desktops are a continually evolving space and a hobby all on their own, due to all the different cooling options and aesthetic upgrades available. And since a lot of these involve a case swap you might as well do the whole enchilada.
The niche created by Framework, in contrast, is all about reuse. It's just a different game.
Parent said nothing about upgradability, it was about repairability. Modularity supports both but I buy framework laptops for the repairability. I stopped buying laptops for real work a long time ago as they were to fragile and had to be sent back to the manufacturer for repairs. Having a modular (repairable) laptop means I don't need a desktop computer just to reliably have a computer.
In case you must send it in, with a Framework you can also remove the SSD (in like a minute) beforehand, so you don’t have to trust the manufacturer‘s repair contractor with your digital secrets/data integrity.
Back when I had a desktop computer (almost 20 years ago!), I would usually keep the case and upgrade motherboard, CPU, RAM, video, etc. Unless the case was holding back something I really wanted to do (like have more drive bays or PCI slots), I'd see no reason to replace the case. In fact, a case upgrade would be independent of the component upgrades. I had a very janky, cheap case for the machine I built for college; once I graduated and had a job and some income, I replaced the case without upgrading any of the components. And then a year or two later I think I upgraded the motherboard and CPU.
I'm pretty happy with the Framework 13 form factor (though, after 3 years of use, I'd still probably prefer a 16:9 or 16:10 screen over the weird 3:2 they ship with), and absent any future catastrophic damage to it, I don't see a reason to replace the chassis.
And I've already upgraded a few things in it: I have a newer mainboard (well, to be fair, I got it due to a warranty repair where they decided it was cheaper for them to upgrade me to the 2023 model), and I upgraded the built-in speakers and the webcam. I'm thinking about upgrading the screen as well at some point. In two years I'll probably replace the mainboard and RAM (not that I want to replace the RAM, but I have DDR4 now, and I'll presumably need DDR5).
You were way over complicating the cheapest part of a build. A good keyboard, mouse and display cost way more than a case and I almost never upgrade those when upgrading a PC
Your mental idea of "desktop pc" probably doesn’t consider monitor, speakers, keyboard, touchpad, camera and most importantly battery. It isn’t mobile, wear risk of damage is limited. The case of a desktop pc is merely an afterthought, in a laptop it’s protection and interface, basically the thing. A desktop pc is usually also rather overpowered, since heat/energy demands and high component costs are of less concern, where laptops are often defined by compromise between physics, costs and tech at a certain time. Why would you bother upgrading an overpowered desktop CPU/RAM for slightly better energy efficiency, where in a laptop a „node size jump“, or even new ISA can mean double battery life, or less thermal throttling.
I bought my desktop PC about 20 years ago, and since then, I've never upgraded more than two components at once. It is literally Theseus' ship. But I put some effort into keeping it future proof, like buying memory compatible with the next generation motherboard, better modular PSU with power for future video card etc. It is actually quite fun game, especially when your vendor return policy is generous enough to not worry if something won't fit or won't work together.
The main difference is the chassis is ~ 10% of the cost of a desktop. It's ~ 40% (?) of the cost of a Framework, so rolling it forward (with screen, speakers, mic, keyboard, webcam etc.) saves you a fair bit more value.
I haven't checked those %s but just using them notionally.
My case was 100$ and it's housed components worth maybe 4000$ over it's lifetime, I regret not getting one with dust filters now that it's been stickerbombed and has sentimental value.
But it's definitely more percentage value in a laptop with touchpads, wifi, keyboard, battery and display over a case that's just some bent metal and if you're fancy a glass panel.
Never seen a device with soldered storage that is a laptop and isn't an Apple.
And the reason why RAM is soldered is because they need the signal integrity to run "high performance" graphics on it, it's not (just) because the manufacturer hates you. This is why FW desktop has soldered memory too.
LPCAMM is coming, which is an interface with better signal integrity than SODIMM or whatever they're called, I hope it will bring RAM upgradeability back to office machines. I really only need to render videos and a slightly animated WM on my laptop so I don't care for HIGH PERFORMANCE AI IGPU when I have a desktop at home.
eh, while not fitting ragebait, plenty of Lenovos, Dells, and HPs have upgradable hard drives and not few have upgradable RAM and WiFi modules too. I'm writing this on a 2019 Lenovo P2 that I upgraded both the RAM and nvme on it.
And it isn't just about upgrading for better specs. I'd wager the majority of people's laptop replacement cycle is triggerd by a single part dying (screen, hard disk, keyboard, hinges, PSU), the device being out of warranty, and the store quoting more for the fix than a new device would cost. Being able to purchase the $50 part online and do the repair yourself will probably save the average person thousands over a 3-5 year span.
Most laptops I know have lasted 5-7 years and then been replaced. It's totally unclear to me that a single part would have changed any of those replacements.
I'm curious if you have a different experience where you ditch a laptop after less than 3 years because a single part has broken as you imply.
I did that once when I created a pressure mark on the screen via mishandling, bought a replacement only to find that it didn't fit due to some kind of nuance in the model name - never found the correct part.
I passed it down to family and bought a new laptop, as my attempt at repairing also damaged the plastic parts which were holding the bezel in place.
Overall every laptop I had suffered mechanical damage of some sort and occasionally it was just something I had to live with, as I didn't want to chance e.g. soldering.
With my Framework I know any regular repair is a 30min job, as I assembled and disassembled it several times already.
How often do you break your phone that you've save sooo much? Mine is at least 2 years older (I got it 2 years before the Fairphone 4 was released) and I've spend 0$ dollars repairing it.
Yeah, I personally take that into account however I can see why someone may not.
Framework has released fairly consistent upgrades for the Framework 13, but there's no guarantee that they will continue to do so, will release upgrades for the Framework 16, etc.
I think in a few years when they've been in business for closer to a decade than not and released updates across the whole product line, it'd be pretty hard for anyone to make an argument that that _shouldn't_ be factored in.
Thinkpads have had similar layouts for decades. The keyboard mechanisms have of course changed, but the Emacs friendly dual ctrl and alt symmetric about the space bar have remained.
Also being the most Linux friendly laptop also means they have very long update lifespans and being well built tend not to break…though there are plenty of repair parts and spares.
Here you can mostly dyi the repair. So you are not stuck waiting for Apple's appointment and repair schedule which would be a week at the minimum that you are grounded.
Plus easy upgradeability ..
I think monetary value can be accomplished by streamlining a second hand marketplace. If you've purchased a device the vendor can keep track of what and when. It should be relatively simple to put the known device or part back in the shop. Depending on the part and age they can also buy back and refurbish parts. A standard discount on an upgrade if you return the old part. Etc
One could even allow other manufacturers to offer parts and do certification for a fee.
It should be possible to push down prices and make update paths more appealing.
I guess Framework is maybe too new for us to be able to come up with figures here, but monetary value is hard to measure for a product where the intention is you don't ever fully replace it.
Sure, I might have spent a few hundred more on my Framework 13 back in 2022, but if I'd bought a Dell XPS 13 instead, I probably would be fully replacing it with a new machine in 2026 or 2027. But with the Framework, I'll instead only buy a new mainboard and RAM. My "next laptop" will cost ~$1000 for the same specs as something that would cost ~$2000.
So sure, it's going to take me a bit longer to realize the savings, but there still will be savings, and I appreciate the sustainability aspects too.
It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products.
The author of the fine article’s strategy of used Thinkpads is more sustainable because reuse is among the most sustainable practices and there is an abundance of Thinkpad repair parts and spares machines.
Of course, Thinkpads are not terribly upgradable. But upgrading is often the opposite of sustainable…in many cases CPU’s, etc. are fast-fashionesque.
I am happy to pay more money given the companies goals, and that extra money is an investment to me. If I didnt buy it they have one less sale, and I won't have contributed to making the world have more companies like framework. I have hope others are doing the same despite them not being the cheapest.
If they stop delivering, ill not buy their next thing, and ill be sad.
And note that if the price is a pain point, you're free to order the Framework DIY without RAM and NVMe and get them cheaper elsewhere. Should bring it closer to the competition price point.
One of the versions that the author compares the Framework 12 to with respect to value is the Framework 13… so, it’s not like they are ignoring the Framework repairable design philosophy.
Here is the “ugly” part of the Ars summary (as in good/bad/ugly):
It's just too expensive for what it is. It looks and feels like a lower-cost laptop, but without a dramatically lower price than the nicer, faster Framework 13.
I really liked the idea of Framework making inter-changeable parts available for their laptops-- allowing the purchaser to keep the laptop running / upgrading as long as they wish. I also liked not having to buy parts with the laptop that I will be replacing anyway (SSD, RAM). Unfortunately, Framework now includes wifi even with the bare bones laptops, so some e-waste from replacing that.
But, the premium paid is high. And, their warranty support was, in my opinion, not a good experience. The expansion cards, which are just USB dongles internal to the computer, are gimmicky and waste space that could be used for something useful, like a slot for a second SSD, or larger battery.
I ended up sending back the Framework 13, I recently purchased, because of the warranty support experience for a mechanical issue with a single expansion card (usb dongle). Framework support had me jump through hoops for a week, repeating tests, asking me to answer the same questions again and again, and finally, "now do everything again and make a video and upload it to youtube" [actual request from Framework]. All for a part that retails for $9. The experience spooked me, and I sent back the laptop for a refund during the 30 day return window.
The Dell I replaced it with has an inferior screen*, a slightly inferior keyboard, vastly inferior CPU cooling (the Dell thermal throttles under heavy load), but Dell was half the price, and it arrived at my door 8 hours after I ordered it. And, unless things have changed, Dell warranty support was always excellent.
Hopefully Framework fixes the issues with their warranty support process. I hope they succeed.
* Dim screen on Dell mitigated by using the money I saved on the laptop price, to buy a portable 13" e-ink monitor which is vastly superior to the Framework display when working outdoors.
The monetary value comes in the long term (5+ years).
Other Brands Notebooks are not upgradable, not repairable and the most frustrating part are the batteries - which framework offers an original replacement for.
"Modern" office notebooks don't have to be that powerful. I'm still using a T480s which will only render unusable as soon as the battery dies with no <100 bucks replacement parts available.
I think buying a framework is an investment for people planning to keep the device for 5+ years and/or want to support the right to repair movement.
I'm really suprised and impressed they managed to ship such a great device and keep their promises for so long even if it is not the besteht bang for the buck (short term). Keep up the great work.
I’d add that the potential to support other architectures is also a benefit. At the moment the framework 13 chassis supports risc-v [0] [1] with rumors about an arm variant.
Beyond practical repairability and sustainability, I appreciate the possibility of swapping out a mainboard for another with a completely different arch
Repairability sounds good in theory but in practice outside of two year warranty period I'm fine if I have to replace the device because of failure, but I got 4-5 out of most of my devices. Like my 2018 Intel MBP was the worst laptop in terms of thermals/battery etc. It's still going with a family member I handed it over to. I don't think I've had a laptop die on me in last 12 years of using laptops, I usually keep them around after upgrade or pass them off to family.
And the upgradable internals sound like more of a hassle than a benefit - especially since buying a different device will be cheaper and probably a better experience since they don't have to engineer for replaceability.
Theoretically you'd get the option to plug in stuff not available in other laptops like strix halo - but then they still don't offer that in laptops. So meh.
Kind of with you on this. I just installed Arch on my wife’s old 2013 MacBook Pro. Works like a charm.
My work laptop (Fedora Linux, Dell XPS)is over 5 years old. I haven’t bothered to replace it, but will next year just because. The old one will become a retro gaming device for the kids.
I broke some of my devices, and some have battery become useless, and the price of changing is just not worth it, but overall? They last really long time. I even have some shitty 7 years old Chromebook still working okay passed to a family member, and Macbooks in general last very long.
And upgrading laptop components after 5 years just doesn't sound like a good value proposition.
Not sure how your family is using it. But I find that a laptop using as a desktop has a much longer lifespan than a laptop using as intended ( a traveling work station ). Things like moisture, accidental drops, keyboard issue is much more common.
I don't really understand the repairability appeal of the Framework. Hasn't that already been a selling point for the business line laptops of HP, Lenovo and Dell for years? They all offer premium business laptops with removable RAM, SSD and battery and very detailed maintenance guides. Part availability is good too.
What’s the current procedure for getting HP or Lenovo or Dell to sell you replacement monitor? What about just a chassis if you drop yours and get a dent? Even a spare battery? If you’re not buying one of their premium business laptops, you’re kind of SOL.
How about in five years from now when all of that is still fine, but you just want to replace the mainboard.
What about when framework comes out with upgrades down the line? The great thing is because they’re so modular you can just buy that and slap it in without having to buy an entirely new machine.
Dell Latitude and Lenovo Thinkpad parts are pretty easy to come by on eBay. I’ve bought a handful of different parts from drive caddies, OEM batteries, hinge assemblies, keyboards, and trackpads without much drama. Dell Latitude service manuals are top notch with detailed procedures and diagrams. Dell has a decent track record of maintaining their firmware for a reasonable number of years after release.
My previous laptop was HP, and servicing it was fairly unpleasant. It required removing around 30 screws of multiple sizes to get access, where the Framework requires 5 screws, which are captive. By the third time I needed to service the HP, the part I needed was no longer available directly from HP, and the 3rd party price was too expensive to sink into an aging laptop.
Some of the business lines are better, but the ultrabook styles that Framework is competing with can be pretty difficult to work on because the internals are so optimized for performance in a small space. The big manufacturers also tend to change the internals enough between models/versions, that if you want to fully gut and swap the insides, or maybe just replace the keyboard, the chassis is incompatible. Framework is designed to service over a longer period of time.
There is a tradeoff, because the super-optimized layouts of the big manufacturers are often superior. But for me at least, the Framework is good enough, and when I do need to make changes, it's a better experience. I'm also voting with my wallet for the change I want to see, even though the cost is probably a slightly worse laptop.
They have laptops with soldered RAM but also a lot without. The classic 14" ThinkPad (now called T14) has non-soldered RAM. The EliteBook 8 G1 14" also non-soldered RAM if you get the non-Lunar Lake edition. Same for the Dell counterpart.
While HP's service guides have been good, even on their non-business models, the actual serviceability isn't great. You have rubber feet that can't be re-applied after removal, and good luck getting replacement parts as an average consumer (I haven't even been able to get a first-party battery for my HP Envy x360). Not every laptop is going to a corporation with an IT department and direct procurement connections.
RAM, SSD, and battery are also the very minimum in terms of serviceability on a laptop, they've been traditionally user-serviceable. It's components like the touchpad, display, ribbon cables, etc. that haven't been traditionally easy/possible to replace.
The consumer laptops are not built for easy repairability. EliteBooks are very servicable, only 4 or 5 captive screws and you can easily access all the internals.
Having specific lines be easily repairable doesn't influence how Framework laptops interact with the rest of the market. It's very much not just businesses (or individuals buying business-line devices) that should be able to repair their laptops, and they're not advertising themselves exclusively to businesses.
Also, my biggest issue with my HP Envy x360 is not getting inside. It's annoying to have to buy new (third-party) replacement feet after removing them (and shouldn't be done by HP regardless), but it's not a big problem. And the service guide is quite good. It's the fact that I haven't been able to buy a new first-party battery, I can't buy a new screen, mainboard, or trackpad if I end up needing one.
Sure I can (and have) upgraded the RAM and SSD, and replaced the battery with a third-party one (well actually two, the first one didn't have some ID chip, and would show a warning screen on every boot). But the RAM and SSD are just upgrades, and batteries are consumables. I can't reasonably repair damaged or failing parts if the screen cracks, if coffee gets spilled in the keyboard, if a port gets damaged. Only 4 parts are listed as available (pen tip, RAM, AC adapter, and Wi-Fi card), and only the AC adapter is in stock.
No indeed it doesn't change anything about Framework the company. But I still fail to see why I would buy a Framework over a HP EliteBook, Lenovo ThinkPad or Dell Pro laptop. The only reason I can imagine is upgradability: you can upgrade the CPU by buying a new mainboard. But that doesn't really appeal to me. The mainboards are very expensive and it only leads to more e-waste. From a sustainability perspective it's better to have 2 fully functioning laptops in use compared to 1.5 laptops with expensive parts collecting dust in a cabinet.
Where "value" is purely monetary, I think that pretty succinctly sums up my experience/views on the Framework product line.
They make good laptops, but you can generally get more for fewer dollars. If you're shopping on price, you can probably just skip right over their entire product line.
That doesn't mean that their offering doesn't have value. It has value has a vote with your wallet for sustainable, repairable products. It has value as an easily repairable and customizable laptop. It has value in some esoteric use cases it can be customized into (e.g., 4xM.2 NVME slots).
Would love to see some reviews just get this out of the way up front and spend more words on the product itself.
Personally, I'm glad there's a company out there serving a market niche besides being the lowest cost, most value-engineered product. I don't mind paying a bit extra for that in exchange for the other value I get out of it.
(And all that said--at the high end specs their prices get a fair bit more competitive. The price to upgrade a laptop from 16GB -> 128GB on Dell's site is _more than an entire FW16 w/ Ryzen 9 + 96GB RAM_.)